Either You Don’t Believe In God Or You’re A Terrible Person September 29, 2009
Posted by noamgr in Philosophy, Religion / Atheism.Tags: atheism, atheist, bible, christian, god, heaven, hell, jesus, kirk cameron, psycho, Religion, thought experiment
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The Psycho Killer Thought Experiment:
Thirsty and hungry after a long shift at work, you decide to pay a visit to the little coffee shop around the corner. Much to your dismay, as you walk inside you find the mutilated bodies of past customers splayed all about the shop, fresh blood still gushing from their wounds; many of them are still half alive, pinioned and horribly disfigured. Whoever is responsible for this is a sick individual.
Before you have time to react, a man walks from out of the kitchen. He is soaked in blood, and is holding two butcher knives. He says: “Don’t be afraid, I will spare you, but rest assured that the next person who walks in through those doors will suffer unimaginable pain. I will strap him onto that chair and torture him for as long as I can keep him alive. I will skin him and pour salt on his wounds and boiling water and cut off his fingers and toes for hours on end.”
Hearing this, you run out of the shop. On your way out, you meet me, a stranger, who am clearly on my way to the coffee shop.
You stop me and warn me: “There’s a psycho killer in that store! Don’t go in!”
I chuckle, thinking it must be a joke, and keep on my way.
Q: would you leave it at that and let me walk into the shop?
I assume most of you would not– not unless you are completely indifferent to the suffering of others.
So, you stop me and warn me once again, but I still don’t believe you. Now you start pleading, begging me not to go in. But instead of listening to you, I start mocking you. I find the notion of a psycho killer behind the door preposterous. Soon more people begin to gather and laugh along with me: men, women, children; all unwittingly on their way to tremendous suffering.
Q: what do you do now?
You have a few choices:
- You give up trying to convince me. In fact, you’re quite happy to let me walk in. I was rude to you and I mocked you, and you feel good knowing that you’ll be the one who gets the last laugh– you were right and I was wrong, and now I am about to suffer the most unimaginable pain as a consequence.
- You let me walk in. You’re not happy about it, but hey, it’s my choice to not believe you, and you’re OK with that.
- You do all that is humanly possible to try and stop me from walking in. You even restrain me physically if you have to. You will not give up until I understand that there really is a psycho killer behind those doors. You don’t care about being ridiculed. My life and the life of countless other innocent people is at stake here! You couldn’t live with yourself knowing that you allowed an innocent man to suffer such a horrible death just because he was misguided in his beliefs.
What do each of these choices tell us about the person?
No doubt most of us will agree that person #1 is despicable. We all enjoy to watch our rival get egg on his face when he’s wrong, but nobody would wish such suffering on him.
Person #2, while not actively malicious, most of us will still agree is equally contemptible. This guy just doesn’t give a shit that you’re about to be skinned alive.
I suspect most of us would take route #3 and do all that is possible to stop the stranger from walking into the store.
***
Conclusion
What I find interesting is that, while in a real life scenario such as the one I described most of us agree that choice #3 is the most reasonable, when it comes to our religious convictions most people opt for choice #2: I’ve argued with countless religious people, many of whom claim they believe I will go to Hell if I don’t find God. Yet none of them are doing anything to try and stop me! – They have completely given up on trying to convert me, if they ever tried at all.
Is this what you're willing to let happen to me just for being wrong?
This leads me to two possible conclusions about religious beliefs: Either you really don’t really care that 15% of the population (Atheists) is going to suffer for all eternity: innocent men and children and women, many of them people you know and are fond of. – Either that or, in reality, though you’ve convinced yourself otherwise, you actually do understand that Hell isn’t real. Not real in the same way that a man holding a knife, ready to dismember the next person who walks into the room is real.
Many people have been conditioned to believe that they believe in God. To never question it, to play the part– though on a deeper level they understand that these “beliefs” are fantasies that have no bearing on reality.
Let me illustrate my point using Kirk Cameron as an example: He has dedicated his life to tirelessly trying to convert non-believers into Christians. I respect that. It’s one man’s honest attempt at saving hundreds of thousands of people from what he believes is their doom, even in the face of public ridicule. In a way I respect him more than I respect the wishy-washy “to each his own” general population– he knows what he believes in and he backs it up with action.
So let me say it again: if you believe in God and Heaven and Hell but are not spending a considerable amount of time out of your day actively trying to convert every Atheist and non-Christian you meet, you are a terrible person. You are willing to allow innocent men and women, mothers and fathers, sons and daughters, decent people, to burn in a lake of fire and suffer for all eternity just because nobody took the time to show them the true path. If you are fine with this, if this doesn’t keep you up at night, you are a terrible person. If it kind of bothers you but you’re not doing anything about it because you got better shit to do with your time… you are a terrible person.
***
Maybe you believe in God but not in a literal interpretation of the Bible. Maybe you believe that God will allow good people into heaven regardless of whether they found Him or not.
If this is where you stand, then let’s be honest: you do not believe in God. I would say few people do, seeing as few people have actually read the Bible from start to finish. (Though I suspect even fewer people would believe in God if they actually read the Bible– which is a topic for a different post.)
If you do not believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible, then you believe in a God that is of your own creation. You have imposed your own notions of what is just and unjust onto your own imaginary God; you’ve created God in your own image. If this is the case, then by your own admittance your God is an imaginary god.
So which is it? Do you believe in God, are you a terrible person, or do you just think you believe in God?
The difference is, if there were a psycho killer I imagine we would be able to supply people with clear, scientific and unambiguous evidence of his existence. The same can not be said for the creator of Hell.
Which opens up a whole ‘nother can of worms, such as:
– Why would a loving God hide his presence and then punish his children for not believing in him.
– Why did he show himself in the bible stories, but not now. Why were the Israelites given proof of God and not us?– When Thomas the Apostle doubted Jesus, he was not punished. If anything, he was assuaged: God showed himself before him and even touched him to prove His presence.– Why was he given that privilege, why was it reasonable for him not to believe in Jesus until he could *physically touch him* (even merely seeing him was not enough), and yet the rest of us are expected to go on faith?
– Why would he give us free will and then punish us for using it?
– Is it really free will if he is omniscient and, from the moment He created the universe, knew every choice each one of us would ever make?
etc. etc. etc…
great analogy… I like it. I’d never thought about Kirk C that way but you’ve got a point! Unfortunately he loses a few ‘respect’ points for other reasons!
Evil cannot make sense:
http://thinkpoint.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/evil-cannot-make-sense/
I hope there is no God
http://thinkpoint.wordpress.com/2008/12/03/i-hope-there-is-no-god-thomas-nagel/
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A definite great read..Jim Bean
Thanks, I try to keep it interesting
A lame analogy but then, Christians seem to be willing to swallow anything that bolsters their delusions. Again, the presence of a psychopath in the shop is something for which verifiable, tangible physical exists. On the other hand, your belief in a God is completely ethereal. A reasonable person may assume that both of you are deluded but the at least the psycho is verifiable, your belief in a god is not.
What rational people do have is plenty of material evidence for a large number of nutter theists who go around pushing their beliefs on everyone else. I’m happy to see resistance to this rude and arrogant behavior on the rise – it’s long overdue.
As you point out, the guy from the restaurant may be delusional too. (and it’s not necessarily verifiable: like Hell, the only way to find out is to walk into the restaurant.)
Either way, the verifiability of the situation is secondary to the main point that I’m trying to make. What matters is that the man BELIEVES there is a psycho killer / hell. The analogy is about the morals of the believer, not the veracity of his claims.
It doesn’t matter if the claims are verifiable or not. What matters is that, if you believe people are walking into a situation that would cause them to suffer greatly, why don’t you try and stop them? If you would stop them from walking into the restaurant, why aren’t you doing the same for Hell?
I can’t see why both situations can’t be held on the same moral ground, but if you really think the analogy does not apply, I’d be happy to hear why.
And I hope you’re not getting worked up over my religious beliefs, because I don’t have any and I really can’t see how anyone would think I do based on this post lol
What?
The man just walked out of a restaurant with dead people inside and one dude covered in blood. Thats on an entirely different scale of belief than a God who has never left any physical proof for his existence.
John: It’s an analogy.
If people say they BELIEVE God is REAL, then there should be no difference between the two situations.
When a suicide bomber walks into a bus and blows himself up, do the people on the bus die any less because his BELIEFS are not grounded on reality? — No. He BELIEVES his god wants him to blow himself up, and he ACTS upon those beliefs.
If Christians say they BELIEVE all these people are going to hell, why are they just sitting around doing nothing to stop it?
I’m having a hard time understanding yours and Joe’s criticism, seeing as nobody here is arguing that God is demonstrably real.
Joe and I are pointing out the analogy is flawed.
Gods existence is far from proven while the knife murderer’s is extremely likely given the physical evidence.
Also the author doesn’t seem to understand that warning of murder is made because I don’t want to see somebody die. The “god” warning is because you want to change how I live.
Again, John, IT DOES NOT MATTER IF THE THREAT IS ACTUALLY REAL.
Did it matter that God is not real when the hijackers of 9 11 flew into a building and killed 3000 people?
No. All that matters is that they BELIEVED that God is real.
If it’s really so hard for you to understand that people out there really do BELIEVE that God and Heaven and Hell are as real as you and me, then you must be living in a bubble.
I really don’t see how I could make this any clearer.
We get it. You don’t believe in God. There is not way to prove the existence of God. — I’m right there with you.
IT DOESN’T MATTER. What matters is what people BELIEVE in and how they ACT based upon their beliefs.
Great post.
Please compare and contrast to this one of mine. If anyone truly believed in fundamentalist theology, it would consume their entire life.
http://thewhitedsepulchre.blogspot.com/2007/12/people-are-going-to-hell.html
Enjoy !
Allen in Fort Worth
[...] Religion trackback This post is a continuation of an article I posted a couple of days ago titled Either You Don’t Believe In God Or You’re A Terrible Person. The article has turned out to be by far my most read post, sparking quite a few responses here [...]
You nailed it.
Thanks. Fan of your blog, by the way; always an interesting read.
Your argument is devoid of validity and logic. The situations are totally different. Do you really mean to suggest that just because moral people would restrain someone from walking into the clutches of a killer, we should all believe that an invisible, omnipotent being created the universe and everything in it? That 100% of scientific evidence pertaining to the evolution of the world, gathered over hundreds of years, is incorrect, and must be rejected in favor of what is stated in a book already riddled with contradictions and incompatibilities?
A literal interpretation of the Bible, a requirement in your opinion, would throw away thousands of years of science and reason in favor of something for which there is no proof.
And, don’t forget, it was a literal interpretation of THEIR Bible – the Koran – that made the 9/11 hijackers commit such an action. See the evils that religion can perpetrate?
That is why I believe that religion induces destabilizing elements into human societies, and therefore it must be expunged, leading to the perpetuation of the human race, or we will destroy ourselves.
Again. NO. that is not even close to what I’m saying.
Please, if you’re going to comment, read the article carefully because THREE people have already gotten all worked up over *their own misinterpretation* of the article.
So, when I say “you”, I mean you, Joe, and John. And please read my responses to them because I really don’t wanna write it again.
I am not religious. That you three seem to be under the impression that I am tells me that either
a) you’ve barely glanced at the article and saw the perfect opportunity to impress yourselves by poking at another one o’ dem crazy creationists with your flawless atheist logic.
or b) you have some reading comprehension issues.
I’m pretty sure I’m not a fundamentalist Christian either; you don’t see many of those studying physics and biology.
For the 4th time:
My argument is not about the VALIDITY of their beliefs. It is about their ACTIONS AS A CONSEQUENCE OF THEIR BELIEFS.
It’s easy to hitch a ride on the Atheist high horse and deconstruct the fallacies of fundamentalism. — But sometimes you have to get inside the other person’s head and actually try to UNDERSTAND them. Even when they are acting irrationally.
Many otherwise perfectly rational people hold very strong religious beliefs. So what, are they just nutso? yea, let’s point an laugh. — man, that Newton sure was an idiot, huh.
I think it’s important to be able to see the situation from the other’s point of view. If you are so stuck in your way of thinking that you are unable to even question WHY other people hold different beliefs — All you know is that you’re right: they’re wrong, but it doesn’t matter why. It just matters that they’re wrong.
Well, isn’t that what we criticize “them” for in the first place?
“Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster.”
Disagreeing with someone if fine. But being unable to step outside of your own view of things for just a moment and consider their motives makes you no better than the dogmatists you scrutinize.
The logic is pretty simple. In mathematics such a statement would be stated as
P => Q
(if P then Q)
IF (you believe people are in danger of great suffering) THEN (you try and stop them)
note that this not the same argument as
IF (people ARE in danger of great suffering) , etc.
Which is what you seem to think I’m saying.
all that matters is that you BELIEVE they are in danger of great suffering, and how you act based on that belief.
so, if you are a christian, and you believe people are in danger of great suffering… why are you not trying to stop it?
I hope the article makes more sense to you now.
Sorry if this response is sloppy but I’m supposed to be meeting a friend for dinner so I wrote it in a big hurry.
Thanks, you’re right.
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There is a lot of scientific evidence as a result of studies involving things like quantum physics and string theory,etc, that our individual consciousness, (our thinking/feeling/willing) has a direct relationship in regard to the creation of the material world that we then experience. In other words, the world we live in and the things that happen to us in the world are the result of “Mind over matter.” We have a cooperative hand in the creation of the reality we exist in, whether it turns out to be pleasant or unpleasant. IF there IS “Life after death,” perhaps it operates on the same principles?
Forget about the “Fundamentalist Christians.” They have lost touch with what Christianity was originally about and how to make it work. There is a much older version of Christianity which, for certain historical reasons, never became well known or was able to have much of any influence on the development of western civilization. This older version, however, continues to exist to this day and has a much different perspective on all of these questions about life and death that you have been discussing, much more in tune with modern, scientific findings. Science is just discovering things that these “Orthodox Christians” always knew, (but spoke of in a different language…)
The way to keep someone you care about from “Going to Hell” is to help them begin to create “Heaven” here and now in THIS world, BEFORE it becomes time for them to leave and go to any other kind of reality. And, as far as that goes, perhaps this “Other kind of reality” that we go to after death is a place where our consciousness, (although separated from our body,) continues to exist, and whatever it INTENDS comes into being INSTANTANEOUSLY. That would certainly give rise to all the stories we have heard of both Heaven and Hell.
Best wishes to one and all!